Bot Ring Discovered On Poker Stars
After being tipped off by this thread on 2+2, PTR has used its bot detection technology to find overwhelming evidence that 10 accounts on PokerStars are being run by computer programs (and not humans). Collectively, they have played at least 8,320,121 hands at the $.25/$.50, $.5/$1 and $1/$2 NL levels, generated $186,572 in rake, and made $57,839 in profit (not including VIP benefits). These accounts are still active and have been observed playing on PokerStars today. We urge PokerStars to freeze their accounts immediately. The following 10 accounts stand accused:
After being tipped off by this | 7emenov | bakabar | craizer |
| mvra | nakseon | kozzin |
| demidou | koldan | Daergy | feidmanis |
Background
In the initial 2+2 thread, Malloc took screenshots from PTR and noted the shocking statistical similarities and consistency in the way 3 accounts moved up and down in stakes. PokerTableRatings has decided to help the effort by analyzing our data. We have found 10 separate accounts that showed remarkable similarities based upon three major factors. • Extremely similar stats across the board. • A changing of stakes played on exactly the same day or within a few days of each other. • A unique and easily identifiable betting pattern from the big blind in unraised pots.The Evidence
Statistical Similarities
Each of these accounts has essentially the same stats across the board. These stats are much too similar to be explained by mere chance. Here is a table showing the remarkably similar stats for each account. This data can be seen by anyone using PTR Premium.7emenov |
bakabar |
craizer |
mvra |
nakseon |
kozzin |
demidou |
koldan |
Daergy |
feidmanis |
|
| VP$IP | 9.04 |
9.03 |
9.00 |
8.99 |
9.01 |
8.93 |
9.00 |
8.95 |
8.94 |
8.88 |
| PFR | 8.99 |
8.98 |
8.95 |
8.95 |
8.96 |
8.88 |
8.96 |
8.90 |
8.89 |
8.82 |
| 3Bet | 7.06 |
6.94 |
7.02 |
7.10 |
7.05 |
6.92 |
6.97 |
7.23 |
6.89 |
6.58 |
7emenov |
bakabar |
craizer |
mvra |
nakseon |
kozzin |
demidou |
koldan |
Daergy |
feidmanis |
|
Small Blind VP$IP |
21.3 |
21.2 |
21.3 |
21.4 |
21.4 |
21.3 |
21.0 |
21.3 |
21.0 |
20.4 |
Big Blind VP$IP |
19.1 |
19.1 |
18.9 |
18.8 |
19.1 |
18.9 |
19.1 |
19.0 |
18.8 |
18.9 |
Early VP$IP |
3.3 |
3.3 |
3.1 |
3.2 |
3.3 |
3.3 |
3.3 |
3.1 |
3.2 |
3.2 |
Middle VP$IP |
4.5 |
4.4 |
4.5 |
4.5 |
4.4 |
4.4 |
4.4 |
4.4 |
4.4 |
4.4 |
Cutoff VP$IP |
6.4 |
6.4 |
6.4 |
6.5 |
6.4 |
6.3 |
6.4 |
6.4 |
6.5 |
6.5 |
Button VP$IP |
9.8 |
9.7 |
9.8 |
10.0 |
9.8 |
9.4 |
9.8 |
9.8 |
9.7 |
9.5 |
Small Blind PFR |
21.2 |
21.1 |
21.2 |
21.3 |
21.3 |
21.2 |
21.0 |
21.2 |
21.0 |
20.3 |
Big Blind PFR |
18.9 |
18.8 |
18.6 |
18.5 |
18.8 |
18.6 |
18.8 |
18.8 |
18.5 |
18.6 |
Early PFR |
3.3 |
3.3 |
3.1 |
3.2 |
3.3 |
3.3 |
3.3 |
3.1 |
3.2 |
3.2 |
Middle PFR |
4.4 |
4.4 |
4.5 |
4.5 |
4.4 |
4.4 |
4.4 |
4.4 |
4.4 |
4.4 |
Cutoff PFR |
6.4 |
6.4 |
6.4 |
6.5 |
6.4 |
6.3 |
6.4 |
6.4 |
6.5 |
6.5 |
Button PFR |
9.8 |
9.7 |
9.7 |
9.9 |
9.7 |
9.4 |
9.7 |
9.8 |
9.7 |
9.4 |
Small Blind 3bet |
8.3 |
8.1 |
8.4 |
8.4 |
8.3 |
8.1 |
8.1 |
8.7 |
8.0 |
7.6 |
Big Blind 3bet |
12.6 |
12.4 |
12.3 |
12.5 |
12.3 |
12.3 |
12.5 |
12.9 |
12.4 |
11.6 |
Early 3bet |
2.6 |
2.7 |
2.4 |
2.8 |
2.3 |
2.2 |
2.1 |
2.8 |
2.9 |
2.6 |
Middle 3bet |
3.1 |
3.1 |
3.2 |
3.1 |
3.1 |
3.1 |
3.0 |
3.2 |
3.1 |
3.1 |
Cutoff 3bet |
3.9 |
3.8 |
3.8 |
3.9 |
3.8 |
3.7 |
3.9 |
3.9 |
3.7 |
3.6 |
Button 3bet |
4.8 |
4.6 |
4.8 |
5.1 |
4.8 |
4.7 |
4.6 |
4.9 |
4.6 |
4.8 |
Saw Flop |
5.1 |
5.0 |
5.0 |
5.1 |
5.1 |
5.0 |
5.1 |
5.1 |
5.0 |
5.2 |
Flop Agg. Frequency |
34.1 |
34.3 |
33.9 |
34.4 |
34.3 |
33.6 |
33.9 |
34.3 |
35.3 |
32.5 |
Flop Fold % |
92.9 |
91.8 |
92.1 |
91.1 |
92.2 |
92.9 |
92.0 |
91.9 |
91.7 |
93.4 |
Flop Call % |
0.0 |
0.1 |
0.0 |
0.5 |
0.0 |
0.1 |
0.0 |
0.3 |
0.1 |
0.0 |
Flop Bet % |
25.9 |
26.1 |
25.7 |
25.8 |
25.4 |
25.7 |
25.7 |
25.4 |
26.2 |
24.8 |
Flop Raise % |
7.06 |
8.1 |
7.87 |
8.45 |
7.84 |
7.01 |
8 |
7.82 |
8.23 |
6.58 |
Flop Check Raise % |
0.0 |
0.0 |
0.0 |
0.2 |
0.0 |
0.0 |
0.0 |
0.1 |
0.0 |
0.0 |
As you can see, these 10 players are clustered in the lower left of the chart. They are virtually identical. The biggest distance within the bot group is Daergy at 2.39. The next closest player has a distance of 32.94.
As further evidence, here is a comparison of two of the players using PTR Premium. Again you can see that there is almost no difference in their play style.
Stake Changes
Each of these accounts exhibited a remarkably similar pattern in moving down in stakes. As you can see from this chart, they all moved down at nearly the exact same time. This is strong evidence that these accounts were being coordinated by single person / group of people.7emenov |
bakabar |
craizer |
mvra |
nakseon |
kozzin |
demidou |
koldan |
Daergy |
feidmanis |
|
| $1/$2 NLH Last Played |
1/26/10 |
1/27/10 |
1/24/10 |
1/26/10 |
1/12/10 |
1/26/10 |
1/20/10 |
1/25/10 |
1/26/10 |
1/27/10 |
| $0.5/$1 NLH Last Played |
2/19/10 |
2/13/10 |
2/14/10 |
2/13/10 |
2/13/10 |
2/19/10 |
2/14/10 |
2/14/10 |
2/14/10 |
2/19/10 |
| $0.25/$0.5 NLH Last Played |
7/16/10 |
7/16/10 |
7/15/10 |
7/15/10 |
7/16/10 |
7/16/10 |
7/16/10 |
7/16/10 |
7/16/10 |
7/16/10 |
busted.
PS is a POS these SOB's let this happen by keeping these retarded 20-50bb tables run
You're doing some great work PTR.
Thank you! Keep on the look out and put the pressure on Poker Stars folks
Nice work PTR, You guys are awesome for the community! Thanks for putting this all up, I'm curious to see what Mike and Adam have to say about this on the two plus two podcast....
nice work
I honestly thought that PTR was bad for the games, but now I don't know how to thank you
since pokerstars apparently don't care about bots since they are making rake
THIS is why PTR should never be banned by any sites and they should be embraced. BIG THANKS to you guys at PTR/2p2/intellipoker who took their time and resources to unearth these guys.
Good Job PTR.
Now, can you close your website, TY :) ?
Good Job PTR!!!
the owner of the bots should get the noble price if this shit wasn illegal imo
7emenov is now online on pokerstars, didn’t check the rest
I have done my own independent 1st experience analysis of Pokerstars, FullTilt and CelebPoker
Conclusion:
80% bots
100% rigged
0% of making a living playing online if you're not in on the scam
US was lucky enough to get some bank transactions denied
Online poker should NOT be permitted anywhere!!!
i know of a bot playing on pstars and said i would turn him in for a reward... they said no their security will catch him.... this was a month or two ago and he still has not been caught
With more knowledge of the betting patterns I guess players can now join the bots table and limp in position with a good hand when bot is in big blind and reraise to generally take down the pot.
This is sickening
didn't know there's profitable bots out there... scary and kind of disappointing.
Can you let us know when pokerstars react to this and what they are gonna do about it.
Greta job PTR!
Nice job PTR
Stars fails so hard lately but since they are advertising everywhere fishes will keep playing there. Wonder how much money they gave to Pokernews for the wsop coverage.
Good job PTR and whoever at 2+2 that helped on this issue.
Why don't we just go play the bots, and have the problem solve itself? obviously they have a decent bankroll haha, up 50k
Its clear pokerstars / Ftilt etc want websites like PTR banned / closed down for the very reason this thread started, PTR highlights & broadcasts THEIR ( poker clients) FAILINGS & protects the poker community. They dont wants snoops or more scrutiny, The big poker clients are only interested in profit & their reputations...WELL DONE PTR & the guys at 2+2...we're all f**ked without you...Lets see where this goes...
Not sure why people are complaining about bots... Bots are programs which function based on the code implemented by their creator. They are robotic and predictable, aren't capable of adapting, interpreting bet sizes, or thinking critically... A good poker player vs a bot will win everytime over a large sample... The only bad thing i see with this, is competing with bots to take fishes money.
Nice job, PTR!
Pokerstars has captcha's so how does a bot deal with that?
the 4bet% = 0???
Really nice work. Thanks
Great job PTR.....
well done! its so sick that you guys have the setup and knowhow (and stones imo) to take on these ambitious lil projects.
now lets see how stars pays back those who were cheated.
good job ptr. Keep up the good work seriosly
but i can see more rigged man who play more than 400K hand on the nl2 and have more than 1 K $ profit why he not playing on the nl 5 or higher. i think its bot too. Pleas look at PTR :)
Furthermore i suspect all the "chinese "players doing the same ritual on this limit.
gj ptr
"THIS is why PTR should never be banned by any sites and they should be embraced. BIG THANKS to you guys at PTR/2p2/intellipoker who took their time and resources to unearth these guys."
No this is why Stars needs to allow an outside independent group to look at the hands and do this analysis, but not allow them to publish results and sell hands to everyone. These are two different things and just because PTR has done some very good things recently does not take away from the fact that they are one of the worst threats to the quality of the games period. I mean what is more helpful to a bot than to be able to purchase millions of hands in which they have not played?
How about players "Millionsuns" or "deerbox" at 25NL, only to name a few? According to PTR they play up to twenty thousand hands per day and there might be 2 or 3 "guys" more doing the same on 25NL - everyday and up to sixteen hours without a break (if I interpret the PTR session overview correctly).
Perhaps somebody with a PTR Premium account could take a look on those too?
Anyway, good job PTR!
Good work PTR. if they ever try to ban this site I will against them for them for this finding alone!!
I agree with docdoc! i stopped playing NL and switched to fixed limit. no fun in calling $5 all in of these guys and loose to a worse kicker A....
I mean this is such an easy and basic analysis... Why cant do this pokerstars..
OMG Good Job PTR
What this also shows is that, really, the bots aren't very good. Total crap winrate.
@EyesofaBlueDog
You say that bots aren't good. But think about it, it is the perfect plan.
Overall, Bots are going to get their $$ in good more than 50% of the time, by shoving with the best hand...
Now, if they get their $$ in 51% of the time in a good spot, and have a BR to ride out the variance... They will win $$ in the long run. It says that they've played 8 million + hands... And they are up $180k, + Rakeback + VPP points.
Now, if nobody had noticed these bots for 5 years, they would probably be up a huge amount, for what to the programmer is probably no work at all...
nakseon and koldan even play right now on the same table, motherfuckers
They have botscore = 56, algorithm fail?
respect to the ptr team...
NICE WORK!!! GET THEM ALL!
PokerStars have to know about this but rake is rake, maybe one of reasons why they didnt cancel shorstacks :) But now thx to PTR they will have to ban them and lose some profit...
lol thats really funny.
the bots have a botscore of ~60
i'l be very disappointed if pokerstars does nothing... which is very likely. good work ptr
Nice work,PTR!
opefully that will slow down any other bots!
good job ptr
big thx to ptr. nice sherlock-skills, good job.
"The only bad thing i see with this, is competing with bots to take fishes money."
pretty major thing !!!!!!
well done PRT!!!
I Would rather not have all this info freely available i have to say, Fair enough PTR can talk to stars about these things but why let everyone know peoples exact stats its not necessary just find them and ban them dont publish full stats for everyone.
cz sup
This shows that bots can and do win at the 200 nl level. I don't like the fact that it's happening, or that it could destroy on line poker. When enough people see one can make 60k, they have a vested interest in seeing if they can do it and a % of them will see if they can.
Another issue I wonder about is if there are enough bots out there, say 5/10 on a full ring table, then they good feed hole card info with one another or with a live player running the bots.
It bugs me PTR can report this stuff but is too lazy to fix their annoying ass trantortroll spamming problem
But look at the differences in their profit timelines. Some of them aren't winning at all!
just play the deepstack tables and they dont have a chance..
PTR GUYS YOU GUYS SHOULDNT EVER POST THINGS LIKE THIS PUBLICALLY until AFTER you privately notifying the sites and after they have taken action and frozen the accounts. Making a public announcement before the sites are aware of this gives the offending accounts some opportunity to withdraw some of their ill gotten funds which stars would have otherwise sent back to the players affected.
Other than that, keep up the good work policing the games
This will only scare newcomers to poker away from the game, unless Pokerstars make a full refund to all accounts affected
PokerStars was already notified about these player names a while ago, but PokerStars "cleared" their names and said everything was OK. Sadly, letting the public know is the only way to get the poker sites to take any real action.
sick stuff, ban them all, refund all money...
The bots were implemented by pokerstars as a means of additional profit...well done you fucking scalawags
Rigged!
What's their "botscore" lol
PTR is doing a hell of a job getting players on their side
На месте Руководства PokerStars я бы послал Вас НАХУЙ открытым текстом, за МАЙНИНГ и продажу конфиденциальной информации. Так что, с начало подумайте над собой прежде чем указывать им что делать!
stars dont give a f#¤%. they only want ppl to rake hands.
It is also illegal to buy hands, and more than 10000 have already!!!!!!!! that is not fear either
fair of course
never going to play on stars now
Thats only a handfull bots, any neural net based bot with other stats still play and win.
5 weeks ago any at 2+2 swear no..no a bot cant beat NL50 :)
Noone can expect that a billion $ industry is without cheaters...and there are more than the most believe.
what a bunch of conspiracy theory thinkers, 90% of 2+2 forums are kids and morons, if u believe all this stuff u should never play online again otherwise u are a fool, if not then man up and play
Its getting worser and worser with onlinepoker these days...
dontbluffthis876 is a moron
don'tbluff...ur the idiot and fool. The evidence against these being Bots is OVERWHELMING. You sound like one of those people reason and logic mean nothing too. BTW, I have never met ayone who DOES not believe conspiracies exist. Take 9/11. You either believe the offcial conspiracy theory of 19 highjackers...or you believe in an alternate conspiracy theory. Your such a an insecure tool you just buy into all the labels...and would hate to be labled a "conspiracy theorist" as if that is something to be ashamed about. The Powers that be would love 6 billion more of you on the planet!
Наноман ты что ебанутый на всю голову? ты хочешь воевать против ботов в сетке, долбоебина? иди счас попробуй в шахматишки рубанись с ботом, проверь шарит он или нет
Sick, TY to PTR.
the only reason someone wouldn't want this stuff made public is if they themselves are cheating or would like to attempt to cheat in the future. There is no good reason to keep this info quiet. If info like this is kept quiet, then who knows what's happening behind the scenes. We don't need other people to tell us what we should and shouldn't be able to see. If someone believes that someone else is cheating, IT IS THEIR RIGHT TO INFORM ANYONE THEY LIKE OF THEIR OPINION. 'henners19' -who's side are you on you scum??
it appears that mostly low level or new players to the internet want to spend so much time on this stuff, it is is true, then they will deal with it, if there is real evidence, until then they are innocent,imo. the sites for sure would do something as it hurts their cause to make more money if bad publicity continues. i still say most of the people on these sites are kids and younger who believe most of what they read or are not doing very good themselves at online poker. however, there will always be some isolated situations when money involved and people looking for advantages, but still if you believe you are being cheated and its against you, would'nt it be a foolish to continue to play anywhere this is occuring. i been playing online for around 10years and would have more issues with colluding then playing vs a robot with limited thinking process.
fair enuff don'tbluff. Only thing is Poker Stars has shown in the past that they are reluctant to do anything if at all regarding matters like this. Ultimately...they lose money because of rake if they were to detect and seize bots/cheats. But yes...once it becomes public...it becomes a PR issue...and though they may do something about it...I firmly believe that they wish nobody woulda found out in the first place. They're quite content to keep the status quo.
Many idiots like u say are qwik to believe anything, and buy into the "It's rigged" BS conspiracy crap etc. But these numbers of these Bots speak for themselves.
Interesting as well...I was playign against these Bots last night...I did not see any today. After knowing/learning how the Bots play it was in my interest to keep them around...but I still emailed PS support demanding their removal b/c I am big about integrity of the game.
I do however now believe there are a lot more short stack bots out there. There are tons of players (mostly short-stacks)who NEVER talk/chat. I think that is a huge red-flag! Keep in mind they only need to break even in order to be able to make money thru the rewards program. If they can turn a profit tho....that is a huge swindle!
I think collusion is also a thing to worry about...esp. at higher levels. Maybe PS should not allow people to change their screen names like Full tilt's policy?
"The bots were implemented by pokerstars as a means of additional profit…well done you fucking scalawags"
True, they can running this bots for additional profits, that was my first thought.
Shame @ pokerstars
question, if i am playing against a bot, should I start pushing bottom 80% of hands and folding top 20% of hands. I mean come on, if I am that unpredictable the bots cannot read me right?
Sometimes I'm about to ban trantor but he says something that makes me laugh just the littlest bit and I don't do it.
fupeg, since when did pokerstars allow their players to change screen names?
U use to be able to change ur name every 6 months. Has that changed?
Check on prokkets too. Word spreads that he is also a bot.
"fupeg said: U use to be able to change ur name every 6 months. Has that changed?"
That would be Partypoker, not pokerstars.
check manila re stats he is off the charts he is either a bot or a major genius setting up the poker world for a major payday by pretending to play bad SHUT HIM DOWN for his own good
ATeby, sit84, PbIcb, ,AlexanderPAB, simply_tsar, i_shall_beat, M.KBAKuH, BFG9K, xomrkk, KX_NSK, B0CC, matushka57
all shortstackers from novosibirsk playing 1/2-5/10 at the same time onthe same tables. Stars said they were not colluding or bots,but it would not surprise me if they were.
I guess I have to say this again, since no one fucking listens.
ONLINE...........POKER..... IS......RIGGED........AND........NOT.......SAFE.......TO.......PLAY.......PLAY.......AT.......YOUR.......LOCAL.......CASINO.
DONT HAVE A LOCAL CASINO TO PLAY AT? FUCK OFF THEN
please investigate what xg8520 said 2 posts above
Fear not, PTR collective, I have it on good authority that Ricardo and Randy have been assigned the task of eliminating bots.
Sick read on the bots. I'd make it a point to go to all their tables and let everyone including fishes know when the bots are bluffing :D
Just want to add that this is the main reason why shortstacking should be disallowed while playing poker. The shorter you play the more poker becomes a math game which means it easier to get an edge with a good algorithm.
50bb should be the minimum!
DO NOT PUBLIC ....please tell that pokerstars .....
Awesome job. Don't listen to people saying not to make this public. Fair disclosure. Swim at your own risk. I will echo sentiment that the sites will never make this stuff public and likely will not take action unless you guys do. Thanks PTR.
These bots' style of play was so profitable it's insane. For example they played more hands in SB than BB, check raised 0% on flop and folded 92% on the flop, even tho those bots have a vpip of 9%. Imagine if the programmer of those bots was better at poker/put more effort into his bots...
the botscore comments are hysterial..lol
Looks to me like pokerstars got caught filling up games by ptr and had to remove or change the names until they are caught again ..repeat and rinse
just play micro
Use bot to play poker is just a different way of making money. From my point of view, its the same to what PTR website is doing. Non of my businese, and PTR neither. I dont think PTR should do these analysis to ask Pokerstars to freeze these accounts.
fupeg, I very rarely chat but that doesn't mean I'm a bot - I'm just a very bad one-handed typist. now when they enable audio.... that'll be another story. but it's hard to believe that stars would use 10 bots to fill tables when they have a hundred thousand players. seriously those numbers are skewed. it sounds more like individuals who have worked out a a strategy that they think will be profitable. I'm not saying that stars is morally above it. casinos have long employed people to fill up half empty games. But a person on payroll is different from a bot. and with more than 100k players at any given time, do they REALLLY NEED ten extra players to increase their profits?
Kestrel...I never said nor do I believe PS is involved in any way shape or form in the scheme. I just said it is in their interest that as many players pay rake as possible. They are making boat loads of money...so running a bot schemee at the nl 50 would be beyond rediculous.
It is one thing to rarely chat btw...quite another to NEVER CHAT. When someone says nh for example...the proper thing to do is say ty.
Hi, I am voluntary banned from chat. I sent an e-mail to the PSsupport to do that. You can't see these ban anywhere. There is no hint.
But at least, I just play 2k Hands in a month, not 10k ;-)
Good article!
Is there also consistency in timing. How many seconds it does take to make a move?
i was just watching a replay of a hand of craizer, and i see 2 more of those nicks sitting on the same table....that means that if theyre bots, they sit at least 3 on the same table
so what are they going to do for the players that played the bots
probably nothing but you never know. why hasn't pokerstars said anything yet about this
fwiw PTR has not proven they are bots, only that they follow the same algorithm. If someone in a sweatshop somewhere (like the Chinese DoN one) just gave a bunch of people simple algorithms to follow, it could be seperate people clicking the buttons thus not bots and completely legal by the Pokerstars TOS. The real problem here is that shortstacking can be beaten by bots. Shortstack tables have got to go (along with DoNs)
i also was checking some hands whit them and there where 2 of them in the same table in most of the hands.
Isn't it more likely that PS isn't involved, but that someone outside the company wrote an algorithm just to earn profit and VIP points? It doesn't seem too unrealistic that in the near future there will be more advanced algorithms that have accounted for ways to skip detection.
Even if a computer program can earn 0.1bb/100 it would be profitable to use.
if I knew about these bots I would just try to send them broke rather than tell everyone about it. put them in my buddy list and bank it :)
PS is not involved.
ANd Kreb...yes some players have chat off. But if they play 1-2 million hands a year and NEVER chat...yes the odds of them being a bot ar not 100%, but the odds do shoot thru the roof.
I checked my stats vs. the bots head to head...and I turned a profit against them...I was all prepared to ask for my Money back. If they were still here...I'd kill them for more. But I would rather this crap be cleaned up!
PS has still not responded to my email demanding an explanation of what they r going to do about it btw!
How many more of these bots might there be? What's stopping them from simply making 10 more accounts and continuing? I sure hope there are some serious repercussions for this. Just ridiculous.
Lack of chat isn't a good indicator of botness - on FT I quite often have player and observer chat turned off (there's not often much worth reading) so simply don't see if there's any chat going on. I'm sure there's a similar option on Stars.
Given that Stars employs people to monitor for breaches of the rules, suspicious betting patterns, etc., how is it that it took a tip of from a 2+2 thread to expose these bots? Are they not taking cheating very seriously? Perhaps because it doesn't hit their profits and they figure that, given scandals at other sites (e.g. UB) this won't have any impact on their reputation?
poker sites dont care about that the want $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ thats the only thing see potkiller on absolute poker hahaha the dont care
Maybe im mission the point but is this really a big deal? I mean these bots are barely breakeven, not a really a threat at the table are they?
i heard they were saving up all those fpps to trade in for the porsche
Well my guess is that they will end up with nothing as Poker Stars can cancell the accounts and take any money and fpp's left in those accounts. I would hope that all poker sites would monitor anyone playing this many hands even in a short period. I have looked at the number of games the highest ranked players play and it is crazy how much they actually play. But it should be fairly easy for the sites to determine what is possible by average (well above average) play verse insane hands/tournaments played over a period of time. Like # of hours days played in a row and ip addresses for players.
Also I would think that a programmer worth anything could build in a bit of variance in the game play so to avoid be suspected of being a bot. As to the chat thing a simple random chat could be programed as well - it might not answer but could initiate some form of response.
Really I don't think it would be Poker Stars that did this but possibly someone working for them I could see that. It would be crazy for them to even consider and they make so much from the rake and fees they collect anyways.
People complain about conspiracy therories with online poker but the fact is if you watch or play much live poker that Bad Beats happen.
But also for now I would love to be able to figure out if I'm playing against a bot with this simple game plan they use now! As with any good player you got to change how you play over time and these bots don't at this time.
Huh?? These are POKERSTARS bots.... They have amazing BOT detection and THESE were so OBVIOUS (out in the open) that a guy on 2+2 figures it out with only using PTR! Stars is the by far the most corupt site...
This is exactly why it is necessary that PTR really examines Stars closely, they should monitor their RNG for fairness, etc... I have over 3 million hands and 13,000 tourney's on Stars and to say their RNG is totally random is absurd!
The money they earned/stole should be send back to us regular players.
Yea, Pokerstars has been stealing billions, please return to us players!!!
maybe they do? I got compensated over 100 bucks for playing in don's vs a cheating group.
there are a bit more than that....right, deerbox
I love how all the accounts stopped playing after PTR blew the whistle . . . not that I play on PS much anymore, but this has been quite a sensational development for any online poker player to observe!
Are there any legit site anymore. When I play on these big sites, I can't help but feel there is some form of cheating going on. I don't see how a site as big as pokerstars can monitor it 100% 24/7 and guarantee players safety. I don't think any of us will either until some sort of legislative act is passed and we can get some of these servers on US soil and they are being monitored by some sort of company in the US
I am not disputing the possibility of bots and teams of bots operating out there. but i am just not sure that betting patterns that match is a very good means of detection. Such practices as shoving or raising from the blind on limped pots is not unexpected behavior. And if there is a call or multiple calls you will generally have to have hit it strong and usually you wont have if you are just pot building for a lucky hit.
It seems to me that if you manufactured any style of play and bankroll management you would always be able to find a group of individuals that practice it. especially on a site as huge as stars.
Just for curiosity, I would like to see a losing strategy investigated in the same way. I am sure you could find a much bigger group there that match almost identical betting patterns and bankroll management.
LOL, im sorry but based purely on that evidence presented, there is nothing conclusive it is bots being used. Plus pokerstars has a very good bot detection system in place. Further investigation may certainly be warranted, but there are AMPLE grinders who can and do 100k+ hands a month. People don't talk/chat because (a) they can't be bothered and (b) when you are multitabling 15+ tables as many do, you often dont even see any chat because you miss it and you don't have the time to even look at anything except your cards, board and bet, then go to next table.
It is also not unusual to have one player co-ordinating other players to play in accordance with strict guidelines. People bankrolled often are required to play under guidelines.
Check our Pokerstars Pro SpaceGravy who openly has a poker house in costa rica where a team grinds in one room. The guy has won over 18million+ mostly from high level sngs. Are you going to tell me that isnt suss too? And yet he is a sponsored pro.
The amount of co-ordinated rackets in play i suspect is large. Look at all the pro's long regarded as great players getting caught in various scandals.
Good work but i think you need more proof before you can close their accounts.
Good luck.